Saturday, September 10, 2011

Firearm transportation in a vehicle on school property

Friday, September 9, 2011

Firearm transportation in a vehicle on school property

One of the seemingly more confusing areas of Florida firearm laws is whether you can transport a firearm in a vehicle on school property -- from a standpoint of picking up a student -- or campus parking.  Federal law is also involved in this situation.  Here's how it works:

1.   Florida law does not allow anyone to display a firearm or weapon in a rude, angry, careless, or threatening manner within 1000 feet of any school property from elementary thru and including high school, public and private during school hours.  Likewise -- can't display on a school bus, school bus stop, or school sponsored event.  The exception is when you're on private property with permission, license, or invitation of the owner -- within 1000 feet of school grounds.  F.S. 790.115(1).  That covers "display" under Florida law.  Federal law adds you can't even possess within 1000 feet of a school  -- unless you have a valid CWP, or the firearm is unloaded and in a locked container or rack on the vehicle.  18 USC 922(q).  (A few other exceptions apply that I have omitted for clarity sake)(read the book for that).

2.  Florida law generally does not allow anyone to even POSSESS a firearm or weapon (except a common pocketknife) "on" school property, a school bus, school bus stop, or school sponsored event -- and adds to the definition of "school" -- "post secondary" schools -- meaning colleges, universities, and career centers.

However . . .  despite the overall prohibition on "possession" -- you may lawfully possess in your vehicle, per F.S. 790.25(5) -- so long as the firearm is "securely encased".

But,  what  if a "school district" adopts a written and published policy that waives this exception for "purposes of student and campus parking privileges"?   Well then,  according to the subsection in 790.115 we're talking about  -- you no longer can possess in your vehicle -- even securely encased -- where it involves "campus parking privileges".

Now -- whoever wrote this last subsection of the statute -- should be shot, horse-whipped, and drawn-and- quartered.  It's God-awful drafting, confusing, and stupid, besides!  But -- it's there.  What does it mean?

Well -- it means that nobody is really sure what it means!

For instance:    does "purposes of student and campus parking privileges" only apply to students, faculty, administration, and other school employees who "regularly" park there -- or -- does it apply to everyone, all the time, even for a one shot,  five minute or one hour stop at the school?  That  first one seems the most probable interpretation as far as I'm concerned -- and the one I vote for.  But, truthfully -- I could be wrong. It's just too vaguely written to really know.

So -- the next question would be:  Does it also apply to even moms and dads picking up their kid while passing just a few minutes waiting in the parking lot, or even going thru the drive-thru for your kid?  What about parking the car for a few minutes while you're still in the driver's seat with the motor running?  What about parking the car for a few minutes -- still behind the drivers seat -- but this time with the engine turned off?  What if you get out of the car?

In other words -- where is the line between "parking" and "just waiting" . . .  or is there a difference, at all?

Well -- the way it's worded -- and assuming it's constitutional  --   my guess is that if the school district writes and publishes such a policy that forbids parking  -- it  should certainly be effective to forbid any such parking by students, faculty, administration, and school employees -- because that logically is a "campus parking privilege issue".  Why that makes any sense to require -- is beyond me -- but that seems an obvious interpretation of this the law!  Likewise,  you should be aware that the law only allows a  "school district" to pass this absurd prohibition.  It can't be the principal of the school, or anyone else.  It's actually gotta be the entire School Board that votes on it,  passes it,  and has it published.

Of course  -- still  just plain stupid!   But, back to the important question:  Does it apply to everyone else?

Again  -- my response is that that's a total grey area!  Nobody really knows -- and probably never will until there's a "test case" where an appellate court issues an opinion we can all then rely upon.

But there is one ray of hope in the "possession" area.  The ray of hope is that -- assuming there's really such a written and published prohibition by the school district  --  unless you know about the regulation, and deliberately ignore it (ie:  "knowingly and willfully") -- you haven't violated the statute for having a firearm securely encased in your vehicle on school grounds.  F.S. 790.115(2)(b) & (c).   That should mean that  unless such a prohibition is clearly posted as you drive on campus -- or you are stupid enough to admit you know about a published rule that forbids your parking -- you have a very good defense under the statute.   Plus,  if there's no "written and published policy" forbidding it -- then obviously,  it's totally legal for anyone 18 years of age or older to possess securely encased in a vehicle while on school grounds, per 790.25(5).

Still -- you may have a problem with federal law -- because that says if you're within 1000 feet of a school zone (that includes the school grounds) and you know or should know you're within a 1000 feet of such -- you either must have a CWP, or have the firearm unloaded, and in a locked container or rack.  So -- like I tell everyone -- better get that CWP!!!

Of course -- any of that can be an issue of proof at a trial if someone finds out you have a firearm, and the school police officer decides he or she is gonna arrest you no matter what you say  -- but, it is a very good defense.  Still -- it's a felony charge under both Florida and federal law -- although the feds could care less unless you're a terrorist, or selling drugs.

What about colleges and universities?   Can they waive the exception, and prohibit parking for guests and parents the same as a "school district"?  (federal law does not apply here - it only applies thru high school).

Well -- when you get to colleges and universities -- there's a case that says they probably can't -- because they're not considered part of a "school district".  If they're not part of  a "school district" -- there's no way to legally pass such a prohibition.    But, unfortunately,  that portion of the case opinion is not binding law because it's something called "dicta".  So -- it's still a grey area on colleges and universities as to "guest" parking -- and even grayer as to students, faculty, etc.   Plus -- my guess is that if a college student has a firearm in their vehicle parked on campus -- and the administration finds out about it -- and such is forbidden by a student manual or rule -- you're still gonna have big problems with the school, and possible expulsion,  even if you have a valid defense to a criminal case.  And -- the parking lot law doesn't help you or anyone else on that issue because schools are exempted from the parking lot law.

So -- what's the answer?

Well . . .  obviously:    Tell your legislators you want the stupid provision in F.S. 790.115(2)(a)(3), that allows a "school district" to prohibit parking on campus -- to be modified and deleted.  Or . . .  maybe,  just prohibit it to "students" at secondary schools,  and those under 18 years of age?   (a "secondary school" is 6th grade thru 12th grade).

And yeah . . .  I understand your frustration on trying to understand this ridiculous stuff  . . . because now you may be more confused than when you started.  You're certainly gonna have to read this a few times to understand it.  Plus,  you don't want to disobey the law -- but you don't want to leave your firearm at home, and be unprotected -- either.    A truly rotten choice -- and you gotta wonder how the Legislature figures the Second Amendment and your Florida constitutional right to self defense can allow that?   Me, too!   That's exactly why we need to trash this stupid law!

Whatever -- hope I've helped you more than confused you!

copyright 2011 by jon gutmacher

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